Debating IR

Probing the philosophical underpinnings of the international system and anything else of interest.

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006

Defending my team

As a member of the liberal constructivist team, I must defend our actions. First off, I do not believe that we got off theory. Liberal constructivism is not as concerned with power structures as realist constructivism. As a result we accepted the power structure which created the system, because we saw that it was being used to promote the common good. Advocating for the common good based on liberalist concepts is a part of our theory and I believe that we advocated that part of our theory well.

Next you refer to Lynch. If we accept the counter-argument to Lynch's consensus ideas, that some groups are not rational actors and can be excluded from the consensus process, then our actions were totally acceptable and within a theoretical model based on creating norms through consensus. Taking this stance is theoretically acceptable because it is a norm that you can exclude these groups, note the complete disregard of Germany's opinion after World War II.

We viewed and tried to depict your group as a "rogue" group. A group of people with genocidal tendencies who could not be considered rational. If we failed in doing this, I apologize, however the effort was made and taht is important. By painting you in this light, we were able to justify excluding you from the process. Furthermore we created a resolution with the support of 13 of 14 members among our three groups. This is an incredible level of support and would be the equivalent of 177 of the 191 nations in the UN supporting a resolution.
Finally, you say that our group succeeded in creating majority norms, not universal norms. I would argue that a norm in the world to day is that anytime a large majority, perhaps over 2/3 although I have no idea about exact numbers, supportsa given idea, it is accepted as a norm. Take for instance slavery or genital mutilation. Both are generally viewed as evil, but not accepted by all people or even states as evil.

In the end I feel we stayed true to our theory and achieved our goals, while also enriching the process for those involved. (Ok so maybe I spread the liberal constructivist argument on a little to thick at the end there.)

Finally in order to be able to sleept at night I must say that I don't like liberal constructivism. Our team was able to pick and choose our theoretical beliefs in order to complement our strategy. Choosing different norms, such as accepting Lynch, would have caused us to adopt a different, and probably less effective, strategy. I think one of the big problems with liberal constructivism is that oftentimes there are multiple norms and people accept or reject those norms based on various other considerations. In terms of constructivism, I'm definitley inclined to support realist constructivism which accounts better for the reasons people accept norms. I think liberalism could be expanded to encompass liberal constructivism, but I'm not sure that realism could do the same with realist constructivism.

15 Comments:

Blogger Johnny B. said...

First, let me clear up any confusion. I was only referring to the liberal constructivists when referring to teams off theory. I don't have a beef with the liberals or the realist constructivists.

Let me stress before I counter your arguments that I'm not out to get anyone (and sabotage grades) and that I'm interested in discussing the theory as an academic excercise and for the purposes of learning.

I accept the counter-argument to Lynch's thesis but once you accept that argument you are no longer a liberal constructivist. What gives you the right to decide who is rational and who is not? And what gives you the right to decide the common good for all (even the ones you excluded a moment ago)?

If I understand you correctly you are making Rousseau-like argument that the majority can never be wrong. In this issue, helping the poor, I am not going to argue with you that that is immoral. However, if we accept your proposition that the majority can never be wrong what do we do when the majority creates a norm that is immoral. Say for example, we traveled to 1942 and had the Germans and Jews in Germany vote on whether to exterminate the Jews. The Germans would win hands down, probably with a super-majority. But does that mean they are morally right? And why should the Jews accept the decision of a group that did not consider its interests?

Roberts Rules tries its best to protect the rights of the minority but it can only do so much. That is why you guys proved realists right. Us, the weak, were victims, to you the strong, who marginalized us as a "rogue group" (from what appears to be a strategic move based on interests...a very realist thing to do I might add).

Doing the math, you guys left out whopping 35% of the class in your consensus (including us and the 1 person who did not agree)! Do you call that universal?

Roberts Rules creates a tyranny of the majority, just like the house of representatives. If you have 213 votes you can do whatever you like. The cool, deliberative Senate is where universal values are found. If members want to come to an agreement they must reach out to other Senators because they have no other way to get anything done. In this manner, every one is equal and just as important as the next Senator because you cannot move forward without them.

By rejecting to change the system to one that needed a consensus you rejected liberal constructivisms main tenets of equality and putting aside power in order to find the actual "common good". Not just the common good of the rational actors (or those with the power to say who is rational and who isn't).

Listen though, I respect you guys, you were advocating a theory that cannot work in practice. You were caught in a Catch-22. You could agree with our consensus and get nothing or push us to the side and have your way but at the price of proving us right in the end.

The realists had it easy, we could do whatever took to won which was quite an advantageous spot to be in.

10:05 PM  
Blogger NW said...

Let me say also that i do not think you're attacking us for grades. I like the idea of a discussion of the theory and how we apply it. I simply defended Adam and my team because I am part of the team, and the debate interests me.

All it comes down to is how you view or accept liberal constructivism. We were not realists. To say that working in your own interests is realist is simple-minded. Everyone works in their own interests to some degree. Liberals work in their own interests when they advocte human rigths because they believe in human rights. And by furthering human rights they become happy with the world and can say that they helped to change the world. Working in your own interests is realist when you believe that survival and gaining power is the most important factor in the world of anarchy. Simply trying to win is not. Let me clarify this. What makes you realist more than actions is your theoretical beliefs. George W. Bush may have used force in Iraq, but, if we accept his speeches as his true beliefs, he does it for the good of Iraq because he believes in liberal ideals of advancing democracy and freedom aroudn the world. The means do not define the ends.

Furthermore, you keep coming back to universal norms. I do not remember my group ever saying that a) we were trying to establish universal norm and b) universal norms are only universal if every single person in the world agrees. Yes we useda Rousseau-like argument that majorities are never wrong. And I think this is perfectly acceptable for two reasons. 1) We believed that it is a norm that majority rule is the fairest possible political system. 2)Our group was advocating morally acceptable measures.

The question of if we were in 1942 Nazi Germany is irrelevant because we were not. What if arguments don't work in this case. Also in response to your specific reference, I am not sure the majority supported Hitler's extermination. I have no evidence either way, but I would suggest that factors such as fear contributed to a silent consent and also that Hitler went beyond the wishes of most people, but the people were no longer in control. Remember that even "democracy" can be coereced. Saddam routinely received 99% support in elections.

Perhaps liberal constructivists would examine the reason that people accept the Rousseau-like argument. But two things must be taken into account. 1) We were not analyzing in this case, we were advocating. So what would normally be done is not the same as what was. 2)Theoretical analysis of events generally occurs after an event. Which is what we are doing now, analyzing a sequence of events. Oftentimes during the event, individuals do not analyze whether or not they are staying strictly within a theoretical framework. They work to accomplish their goals, often mixing several theories. In the end, I must simply reiterate that the means do not define the ends. For constructivists especially, analysis of means and how they relate to ends is a major study. And Adam's idea that interacting with realists makes any system realist is certainly interesting.

2:07 PM  
Blogger Johnny B. said...

This debate interests me too. I just wanted to make sure that it is understood that I dicker out of the pursuit of knowledge and not to make anyone's lives miserable. I'm a little confused though, in your first post you said you were defending the realist constructivists, but you were on the liberal constructivist team? I'll assume you were on the liberal constructivist team since it's been a few days and my memory is getting hazy.

Let me start by saying that I never said the problem was you guys following your own interests. In a realist sense interests are a given while from a constructivist view interests are the product of identity. The realist world view comes from their belief that states interests are doomed to continually conflict, thus since interests conflict it is only natural that states use their power because their is no way to find a lasting, happy solution. The liberal agenda is one based on overcoming pure power. They seek to transcend power. Institutions are meant to supplant things like military power and economic power and create system along the lines of 1 country, 1 vote or consensus based. Straight liberals don't challenge institutions because they accept many of the realists assumptions.

The liberal constructivists on the other hand do not have this luxury. Constructivism is a theory that says the way international relations is now, is not the way it has to be tomorrow. Practices and shared knowledge can shape the way states behave. Since liberalism is about transcending power, a liberal constructivist seeks to change the system in a way that will transcend power.

In your response you make the claim that your group was advocating morally acceptable measures, but who was the judge of that? There are many systems of morality. A libertarian/conservative view says that government should stay out of the welfare and aid business. If you've read Ayn Rand (the diabolical mother of libertarianism) altruism of any sort is evil in fact. Next, let me further point out that your statement "we believed that it is a norm that majority rule is the fairest possible system" is suspect. You believed it was the fairest system, we did not. As I pointed out earlier majorities are capable of pretty dispicable acts. Remember slavery? The majority whites in the US decided that blacks were not full human beings (3/5ths of one to be exact) and denied them of freedom and property. Your cherry picked the system that was favorable to your cause and denied a system that was morally superior.

I contend that a system based on consensus is actually more fair than the system your group used. Consensus allows all members to be treated as equals and does not let the majority marginalize a minority. I'm sure you'll argue that this isn't practical. At some point the tradeoff between finding a consensus vs. taking meaningful action becomes too great. But in the end, that is why liberal constructivism can't work. The amount of effort it takes to reach a "communicative dialogue" is simply too great a burden to require of actors because at the end of the day they need to follow their own interests and will not submit to a system that undermines their interests, as advocated by liberal constructivists.

Another thing, I must take your statement "oftentimes during the event, individuals do not analyze whether or not they are staying strictly within a theoretical framework" as a tacit admission that you deviated from your paradigm. That is exactly what our group was saying, when we said by rushing through the voting process and marginalizing us you were proving us right. At the end of the day liberal constructivism could not survive the cruel harshness of reality

2:47 PM  
Blogger NW said...

In my original post I meant to say liberal constructivist team. My bad. I've edited it out now.

Now onto the comments. (Note: I am no longer arguing as a liberal constructivist. I may make liberal constructivist arguments, especially if I am defending my team, but now I am simply arguing.) I think the interesting thing here is that when you, Adam, and I have all talked about morality, we have done so through a 21st century perspective. When you attack slavery as evil, you ignore the ideas that could have made slavery acceptable and the larger context surrounding slavery as an institution. If you would like to debate issues such as slavery and the morality or immorality of it, let me know. It is a debate that I love to have, but rarely get the chance. When I advocate aiding the poor as morally acceptable I do the same, examine it through a lense of today. The same with democracy. If we debate why we accept these things as true, then we are truly engaging in a constructivist dialogue.

I take issue with your final paragraph. When I said "oftentimes during the event, individuals do not analyze whether or not they are staying strictly within a theoretical framework", I was simply saying that IR theory analysis can only happen after the fact. Constructivism and liberalism are different from realism in that they advocate a possible way for the world to be in the future, but they can only do so by analyzing events of the past. Therefore my statement is not an admission of deviation but simply an argument explaining how such a thing could occur, which is a constructivist thing to do.

Now I would like to comment on the consensus argument. I feel you are correct in saying that libeal constructivism is doomed if it ties itself to universal consensus. UC is simply impossible. Even if it were possible to achieve a universal consensus on Monday, Tuesday a farmer could lose his homestead and decide that the universal consensus on free trade is not good, thereby blowing the consensus. In terms of UC, I think the most important, and basically only way for liberal constructivism to survive, is to define UC in a little broader way. Perhaps UC could be a consensus of all states in the UN. In that case we just changed the score from 6 billion to 191. Or maybe it could be all of the governments and IOs involved in an action. But if the liberal constructivists insist on a UC based on individuals, they are doomed. No one will be able to ultimately take them seriously. I don't think all LCs believe in UC, and I don't think they need to. They can reject it and choose Rousseau-like systems instead, as long as they examine where it comes from and why it should be accepted.

I think Johnny, that you over-simplify liberal constructivism. By focusing on power structures to disprove UC, you bring into question all norms as based on some kind of power. This argument may be true, but liberal constructivism can survive it, without capitulating to realist constructivism. By identifying power structures, but trying to move past them, liberal constructivists can continue to have a separate line of study. Also, LCs are allowed to believe in things. It is important however for them to routinely examine their beliefs, so that they are aware of what lies beneath the surface. In this way, they can practice their craft, while avoiding hypocrisy.

11:40 PM  
Blogger Johnny B. said...

I like the fact that you mentioned identifying power structures and trying to move past them. That is what I was getting at with my whole focus on consensus. That's what constructivism is about change. Norms we accept today will not necessarily be accepted tomorrow nor our reactions to anarchy and material capabilities.

You guys accepted the status quo as is and accepted its bias against a small minority. Then when you came to a resolution, what you decided, based on supposed universal values, forced those values on us. This was all done using the power of the system.

That's my problem with LC. For every type of way to make a decision I think I can point out a flaw. For example, when you said giving every country in the UN a vote you are assuming that governments and IO's actually are representative of their populations. Does Kim Jong Il really represent all North Koreans? And why should we have to engage in dialogue with dictatorships? And what about indigenous groups and others that are marginalized in many societies, where is their voice?

Probably, the only fair system is one that has to move forward by consensus, all 6 billion of us. Given the average turnout in most democracies this will be cut down to about 20% of the world population. The problem with this system is that it is economically infeasible. The tradeoffs in the costs of reaching an agreed upon solution in terms of time, money etc... are too high when compared to whatever decision is made. That is why we have representatives, even though everyone recognizes that this system is imperfect. The savings from direct democracy are worth the costs in people not getting exactly what they want. However, that doesn't mean that a majority or representative system is moral rather it means that these systems are pragmatic.

Also, yes I recognize that LC's are allowed to believe in something. However, if you recall from our readings a "communicative dialogue" is where people put aside their power and come to a mutually acceptable agreement. Within this process is where a transformation occurs. Essentially, the way I read LC is that after having this dialogue the people involved come out with a new identity based on universally held principles. This is where I take your group to task, you failed to achieve a new identity based on some sort of universal value (note that this doesn't have to be a complete change, it could be a value that deals with one thing only) and therefore failed to create progress that moved humanity forward. Yet, I believe that process to create a new universal identity is impossible and therefore undermines LC's validity. What happens in reality is that a group of people come to an agreement and then force their beliefs or decisions upon others, most of whom probably weren't involved in the first place (Where was the 3rd World during our discussion of our policies affecting the 3rd World?)

Finally, you also mention in the first post that you don't think realism and realist constructivism are compatable. At their face none of these theories are really compatable based on their basic assumptions which is why they are categorized differently. However, I think certain theories can come to the same conclusions, albeit for different reasons. Constructivism says that "anarchy is what states make of it" which translates into the system can fit a realist or liberal conception of it but not does not necessarily have to be that way. Thus, realists and realist constructivists can agree. You can have balance of power, hegemony, and other fun realist stuff but the difference for the realist constructivist is that the balance of power etc...came about from shared knowledge and practices and in the future this might change.

2:25 AM  
Blogger NW said...

I just wanted to quikcly comment to say that by saying realist constructivism and realism are not compatible, I meant that I feel realism and realist constructivism and liberalism are strong theories which can stand alone against critcism and all have valuable insights into the world system. However, I do not feel the same way about liberal constructivism. I think that half its arguments can be taken over by realist constructivism and the other half can be taken over by liberalism. I think 3 strong theories is better than 2 strong, one strengthening and one weak.

Also when I talked with Professor Jackson today, he said that at his latest conference there were many meeting which discussed "which norms?" I am not a constructivist, but I think the idea of determining which norms can and should be accepted is interesting. It might be an intersting place to further this debate.

9:46 PM  
Blogger Kat said...

Finally, you say that our group succeeded in creating majority norms, not universal norms. I would argue that a norm in the world to day is that anytime a large majority... supports a given idea, it is accepted as a norm.

I agree with you here. Is there any point to universal norms? Norms dictate behavior by mandating conformity to pre-established standards, but few if any standards are universally agreed on (if so, there would be no need to mandate conformity). No law is universal; if it were accepted by everyone across the board that a particular action was wrong, it's doubtful that the legislative branch would go to the trouble of codifying it. Norms and laws exist to herd the wayward (in this case, the realists) back into the fold before someone gets hurt. You have to necessarily exclude the people that you're trying to control, or you'd never agree on anything.

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5:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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5:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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palace of chance -
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internet bingo -
jackpot factory -
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jet bingo -
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jupiter club -
king netpunes casino -
lady dream -
lake palace -
mahjong time -
merlins magic casino -
oasis casino -
online vegas -
only bingo -
oyna 65 -
paradise affiliates -
paradise poker -
play 65 -
player vegas -
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poker -
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race track casino -
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royal dice -
sandpiper casino -
shark casino -
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slots village -
speed bet -
tcads -
the six shooter -
the star casino -
tiger gaming -
top card casino -
top line bingo -
trident lounge -
trident poker -
triple win -
ultimate bet -
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winward casino -
24h poker -
400 affiliates -
9 am -
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da vincis gold -
diamond deal casino -
ecard room -
el bingo -
euro poker -
festive bingo -
galactic bingo -
gaming income -
giga slot -
global player -
gran casino royale -
holdem poker -
i net bet -
inter champs -
island poker -
jackpot palace -
ladies bingo -
las seters -
las vegas usa casino -
metro casino -
my bookie -
nine -
nine am -
nine games -
nine poker -
pacific poker -
paradise 8 -
paradise eight -
pharaohs casino -
play and deal -
players club casino -
poker affiliate -
poker room -
pure slots -
purple lounge -
pyramid casino -
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sia casino -
slot fever casino -
slot land -
slots -
slots 24 -
slots cr -
slots plus -
stars and stripes bingo -
sun palace casino -
sunset casino -
this is vegas -
touch stone poker -
true earnings -
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vc casino -
vc poker -
vegas casino online -
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vegas magic -
victor -
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video poker classic -
24kt gold casino -
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arthurian casino -
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aztec riches casino -
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blackjack ballroom -
cameo casino -
captain cooks casino -
captain cooks poker -
caribbean gold -
casino blasters -
casino bleu blanc rouge -
casino classic -
casino coins -
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casino partners -
casino rewards -
casino tropez -
casino us -
cinema casino -
college poker championship -
colosseum casino -
crazy vegas casino -
crazy vegas poker -
desert dollar -
diamond casino -
english habour -
english habour poker -
english habour uk -
europa casino -
flamingo club -
fortune affiliates -
fortune lounge -
fortune room -
gaming club -
gaming club poker -
gaming club uk -
golden palace -
golden palace bingo -
golden palace mobile -
golden palace poker -
golden tiger casino -
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isa bet -
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lucky nugget -
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lucky nugget poker -
maple casino -
millionaire casino -
online casino -
orbital casino -
phoenician casino -
platinum play -
play 4 free -
poker forum challenge -
poker ocean -
poker rewards -
poker time -
refer back -
rewards parking -
river belle -
river belle poker -
royal vegas -
royal vegas poker -
seven sultans -
showdown casino -
silver dollar -
silver dollar casino -
strike it lucky casino -
sun vegas -
super slots -
super slots bingo -
titan poker -
vegas affiliates -
vegas country casino -
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zodiac casino -
32 vegas -
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49er casino -
50 stars casino -
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black widow casino -
caribbean sun poker -
carnival casino -
car sands -
casino fortune -
casino fortune uk -
casino france net -
casino king -
casino las vegas -
casino mb -
casino onliner -
casino on net -
casino pays -
casino profit share -
cd casino -
cd poker -
challenge casino -
cirrus casino -
club dice casino -
club dice poker -
club player casino -
cool cat casino -
cs casino -
diamond club casino -
diamond club poker -
empire poker -
fair poker -
gambling wages -
golden reef casino -
golden riviera casino -
golden riviera poker -
gold gate casino -
gold key casino -
grand banks casino -
i play tournaments -
joyland casino -
luck n roll casino -
mad bingo -
magic box casino -
magic oasis -
mapau -
mapau bingo -
mapau de -
miami beach -
miami paradise casino -
miss bingo -
monaco gold casino -
music hall casino -
new york casino -
noble poker -
nostalgia casinos -
omni casino -
palace of chance -
party bingo -
party casino -
party poker -
peach casino -
planet luck -
playgate casino -
playgate poker -
poker metro -
poke round -
poker show -
prestige bingo -
prestige casino -
prestige poker -
rich webmaster -
river nile casino -
royal plaza casino -
ruby bingo -
ruby bingo uk -
s casino -
slots alley casino -
slots royale -
spass kasino -
sports interaction -
star luck casino -
sterling house casino -
sunny diamonds -
sun palace -
swiss casino -
the sands -
the sands of the caribbean -
three diamonds casino -
uk casino club -
usa casino -
vegas 7 casino -
vegas joker casino -
vegas seven casino -
vegas slot casino -
wager junction -
windows casino -
you bingo -
all jackpots -
all star affiliates -
aus vegas -
bella vegas -
bet 19 -
bet bet -
bet casino -
bet euro -
bet game day -
bet holdem -
bet on games -
bet on races -
bet wwts -
big bettys bingo -
bingo 777 -
bingo fantasy -
black pool bingo -
break away casino -
bright right -
cabaret club casino -
cash wave -
casino hotel network -
casino lucky dog -
casino pay check -
casino verano -
casino webcam -
city club casino -
cyber sportsbook -
diamond gal -
earn united -
fair deal sports -
fast win casino -
five card charlie -
fortune junction -
geisha lounge -
go casino -
gold betting -
good as gold casino -
grand aces -
grand bay -
grand bay poker -
grand casino royale -
grand riviera -
jackpot joy -
jackpots in a flash -
jackpot wheel -
jupiter club -
king neptunes casino -
king solomons -
kiwi bingo -
kiwi bingo uk -
kiwi casino -
kiwi casino poker -
lady dream -
lake palace -
mahjong time -
merlins magic casino -
mummys gold -
online vegas -
only bingo -
piggs casino -
piggs peak -
players vegas -
play united -
poker 333 -
poker share -
race track casino -
refer spot -
roxy palace -
roxy poker -

5:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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sail away casino -
sandpiper casino -
sci fi casino -
shark casino -
spin palace -
spin palace poker -
the six shooter -
the star casino -
tiki bingo -
top card casino -
top line bingo -
trident lounge -
trident poker -
triple win -
ultimate bet -
vegas break casino -
vegas experts -
vegas splendido -
vegas usa -
vip -
vip casinos -
vip horses -
vip poker -
vip profits -
vip soccer -
vip sports -
wager profits -
wssb casino -
wssb sport -
9 am -
9 games -
9 poker -
acf webmaster -
action gold -
action poker -
affiliate lounge -
all slots -
amber coast casino -
apues tas -
atlantic lounge -
bet 365 -
bet 365 poker -
bet com -
bet on usa -
bets son -
bingo bank roll -
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5:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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5:15 AM  

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